First Pure Spell-Caster: Wizard vs Sorcerer?

[Wayne Youngman]

Hi all,

been away working hard etc, also just finished DM'ing a 12 week campaign
(one night a week), now it's my turn to play and I fancy a high level spell
caster. I only played a spell-caster up to character level 7 so far, so now
I wanna have a taste of the good magic. . .

I'm not sure if I should go with a Wizard or a Sorcerer? I understand that
the Sorcerer get fewer spells but is able to cast them more, and that a
Wizard gets better variety of spells but can cast them less. As I never
used high level spells before I'm inclined to go with a wizard so that I am
able to playtest allot of different spells to see how they perform. . .or
maybe I can *feel* my way through using a sorcerer. . .hmmmm

What you guys think?

Wayne ][

[Skrim]

Post by Wayne Youngman
Hi all,
I'm not sure if I should go with a Wizard or a Sorcerer? I understand

that

Post by Wayne Youngman
the Sorcerer get fewer spells but is able to cast them more, and that a
Wizard gets better variety of spells but can cast them less. As I never
used high level spells before I'm inclined to go with a wizard so that I

am

Post by Wayne Youngman
able to playtest allot of different spells to see how they perform. . .or
maybe I can *feel* my way through using a sorcerer. . .hmmmm

Weighing the wizard and sorcerer against each other in our PnP campaign,

the

DM and myself agreed that the wizard seemed to really SUCK! Sorcerers get
more spells to cast on a daily basis and can cast any spell they know, not
just the ones they have memorized. The ONLY redeeming thing on the part of
the wizard is that they get bonus feats (selected from the magic feats).

As

I said, the DM and myself came to the conclusion that wizards got the

short,

smelly, end of the stick.

Post by Wayne Youngman
What you guys think?

? Should I repeat myself now? :-)

I agree, I have had lots of success with sorcerer's using evocation feats
and quick spell. you can load some of your fav spells in hotkey and fire
them off like a madman!! ;) For those of you with SoU 5 or 6 salvos of
Firebrand or Isaac's Greater Missile Storm is allot of fun to watch.
Maximized and your mage will become an army killer.

[Brian G. Vaughan]

Still, for some reason, sorcerers are far more popular than wizards. I
always prefer wizards myself. Maybe I'm missing something...

I prefer wizards as well, for many of the reasons you listed.

I think sorcerors appeal to players who think in terms of there being only a
few "best" spells that are worth using. Also, since sorcerors are focused on
Charisma, they can be good at Persuade, which is frequently useful in many
modules.

[Matthew Miller]

Still, for some reason, sorcerers are far more popular than wizards. I
always prefer wizards myself. Maybe I'm missing something...

Well, don't forget "spontaneous casting". If it turns out you need to cast
knock half a dozen times, you can do that -- no "oops, I memorized too many
Bull's Strengths. You don't have to plan ahead at the beginning of the day.
In modules which let you rest a lot, not really a problem (although still a
bit annoying) but in ones that restrict sleep to certain areas (or
times)....

[Hugh Conkey]

Post by Matthew Miller

Still, for some reason, sorcerers are far more popular than wizards. I
always prefer wizards myself. Maybe I'm missing something...

Well, don't forget "spontaneous casting". If it turns out you need to cast
knock half a dozen times, you can do that -- no "oops, I memorized too many
Bull's Strengths. You don't have to plan ahead at the beginning of the day.
In modules which let you rest a lot, not really a problem (although still a
bit annoying) but in ones that restrict sleep to certain areas (or
times)....
--
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>

Yes, but what happens when you come across a bunch of fire-immune or
fire-resistant monsters and all your fireballs etc don't work? Or you
encounter a group of mages using minor sphere of invulnerability and ditto
and you can't knock it down because the relevant spells aren't used enough
to make it worth a Sorcs while to learn them? Sorcs seem to be much more
powerful in NWN than they would be in BG2 because most modules are
relatively simply written and don't have either the range of different
opponents or the kind of high level mage fights one finds in BG2. The latter
may well be because of the one-character bias of single player NWN - an
unsupported fighter, rogue etc would get creamed too quickly.

Hugh

[John Twernbold]

Well, that's the thing. You don't have to reload, you just run away,
change your spell book around, rest and then go back.

But that's basically the same thing--you're still using a game mechanism
(or a game deficiency) to achieve extraordinary effects, kinda' like
banging the side of a pinball machine to avoid losing a ball.

I was referring to situations where you can't employ such workarounds,
like when playing in a multiplayer game, especially with a DM who
doesn't allow such tricks. Or in a pen 'n' paper game of D&D. Or perhaps
if you simply don't want to employ gimmicks that take advantage of meta-
game mechanics (e.g. saving, which isn't a component of the base D&D
game) or AI deficiences (e.g. when the monsters don't/can't follow you
beyond a certain point, or fight differently the next time). Or even if
you simply don't want to wait to rest again in an HCR module.

It's odd that you'd claim elsewhere in this thread that NWN is "broken"
when compared to PnP D&D in the areas of saving skill points and class
skill limits, yet you seem to defend practices which seem go against the
spirit of the original D&D game...

There's nothing "cheesy" about this, it's a perfectly legitimate way
of playing any arcane spellcaster in SP mode.

I never called it "cheesy", and I agree it's just as legitimate as
saving and reloading. Neither is especially realistic and it could be
argued that it goes against the intent of the D&D game, yet I played
BG/BG2 in just such a manner and certainly don't look down upon such
practices. Some people obviously don't play this way--the upcoming D&D
3E computer game "Temple of Elemental Evil" has an "iron man" mode which
doesn't allow repeatedly saving/reloading, in an attempt to present D&D
in a purer form.

Again, I was merely pointing out that it simply isn't an option in
certain situations, and in those cases a wizard isn't quite as flexible
as suggested.

[Finalstryke]

If you've keep a single slot free to hold invisibility, or circle or invis,
you stand a reasonable chance of running off to memorise something
different, game mechanics aside.

Finalstryke

Post by John Twernbold

Well, that's the thing. You don't have to reload, you just run away,
change your spell book around, rest and then go back.

But that's basically the same thing--you're still using a game mechanism
(or a game deficiency) to achieve extraordinary effects, kinda' like
banging the side of a pinball machine to avoid losing a ball.
I was referring to situations where you can't employ such workarounds,
like when playing in a multiplayer game, especially with a DM who
doesn't allow such tricks. Or in a pen 'n' paper game of D&D. Or perhaps
if you simply don't want to employ gimmicks that take advantage of meta-
game mechanics (e.g. saving, which isn't a component of the base D&D
game) or AI deficiences (e.g. when the monsters don't/can't follow you
beyond a certain point, or fight differently the next time). Or even if
you simply don't want to wait to rest again in an HCR module.
It's odd that you'd claim elsewhere in this thread that NWN is "broken"
when compared to PnP D&D in the areas of saving skill points and class
skill limits, yet you seem to defend practices which seem go against the
spirit of the original D&D game...

There's nothing "cheesy" about this, it's a perfectly legitimate way
of playing any arcane spellcaster in SP mode.

I never called it "cheesy", and I agree it's just as legitimate as
saving and reloading. Neither is especially realistic and it could be
argued that it goes against the intent of the D&D game, yet I played
BG/BG2 in just such a manner and certainly don't look down upon such
practices. Some people obviously don't play this way--the upcoming D&D
3E computer game "Temple of Elemental Evil" has an "iron man" mode which
doesn't allow repeatedly saving/reloading, in an attempt to present D&D
in a purer form.
Again, I was merely pointing out that it simply isn't an option in
certain situations, and in those cases a wizard isn't quite as flexible
as suggested.
--
Bold
aka John Twernbold
jtwernbold (at) yahoo.com
www.aghl-nwn.org

[John Twernbold]

Which is why I specifically mentioned SP mode.

LOL, I think we're in agreement here, cavebear.

Bold: Those tactics won't work in MP.
cavebear: They'll work in SP.
Bold: Right, but I was referring to MP.
cavebear: And I mentioned SP.

:-)

[Wayne Youngman]

Sorcerers have a greatly reduced spell list (e.g. only three 9th level
spells at 20th sorcerer level). Sorcerers run one level behind wizards
in gaining new levels of spells.

Hi all,

thanks for helpful and well written comments. Still undecided but I have
until Tuesday night to suss this out. I guess the main reason I want to
play a high level spellcaster the most is to understand how the spells work
at higher levels. As I mentioned before I have played a multiclassed
character who had 7 levels of Wizard and that's as high as I have cast.

Seeing as the Wizard has access to a greater variety of spells I figure this
class would prove most useful in helping me cast and understand all the high
level magic's. . . .

I think once I understand what's good and what's not I can build a new
Sorcerers with heaps of killa spells. . .yeah a 19/1 - 18/2 Sorcerer/Paladin
is what I was planning (level 2 Pala for FEAR immune!).

Hmm since I will be playing a high INT Wizard I wonder if I should get one
or two levels of Thief to gain heaps of skills points (start as thief for x
4 bonus). . .

Thanks again all,

Wayne ][

[Finalstryke]

if your going to take the thief level than take it as the last one, and save
up 25 unused skill points for that level so you can max our UMD and put your
mage in decent monk armour :)


Finalstryke

Post by Wayne Youngman

Sorcerers have a greatly reduced spell list (e.g. only three 9th level
spells at 20th sorcerer level). Sorcerers run one level behind wizards
in gaining new levels of spells.

Hi all,
thanks for helpful and well written comments. Still undecided but I have
until Tuesday night to suss this out. I guess the main reason I want to
play a high level spellcaster the most is to understand how the spells work
at higher levels. As I mentioned before I have played a multiclassed
character who had 7 levels of Wizard and that's as high as I have cast.
Seeing as the Wizard has access to a greater variety of spells I figure this
class would prove most useful in helping me cast and understand all the high
level magic's. . . .
I think once I understand what's good and what's not I can build a new
Sorcerers with heaps of killa spells. . .yeah a 19/1 - 18/2

Sorcerer/Paladin

Post by Wayne Youngman
is what I was planning (level 2 Pala for FEAR immune!).
Hmm since I will be playing a high INT Wizard I wonder if I should get one
or two levels of Thief to gain heaps of skills points (start as thief for x
4 bonus). . .
Thanks again all,
Wayne ][

[Wayne Youngman]

Post by Finalstryke
if your going to take the thief level than take it as the last one,
and save up 25 unused skill points for that level so you can max our
UMD and put your mage in decent monk armour :)

Hi,
what is UMD?

Wayne ][

[Matthew Miller]

Post by Wayne Youngman

Post by Finalstryke
if your going to take the thief level than take it as the last one,
and save up 25 unused skill points for that level so you can max our
UMD and put your mage in decent monk armour :)

what is UMD?

Use Magic Device.

And this is yet another reason why NWN's "save your skill points" thing is
terribly broken.

[Wayne Youngman]

Post by Matthew Miller

Post by Finalstryke
if your going to take the thief level than take it as the last one,
and save up 25 unused skill points for that level so you can max our
UMD and put your mage in decent monk armour :)

Use Magic Device.
And this is yet another reason why NWN's "save your skill points"
thing is terribly broken.

Hi,

ah I see, but could you do that, as in save 25 points to spend then take a
level of thief and max out *UMD*, I thought you were restricted how high you
could take a specific skill, based on your class level?

Wayne ][

[cavebear]

Post by Wayne Youngman
ah I see, but could you do that, as in save 25 points to spend then take a
level of thief and max out *UMD*, I thought you were restricted how high you
could take a specific skill, based on your class level?

No, yet another way NWN is "broken". If you take a level of rogue at
20th level, rogue class skills can be raised to 23 (20th character
level + 3) not just 4 (1st rogue class level + 3).

[Patrick Dobson]

Post by cavebear

Post by Wayne Youngman
ah I see, but could you do that, as in save 25 points to spend then
take a level of thief and max out *UMD*, I thought you were
restricted how high you could take a specific skill, based on your
class level?

No, yet another way NWN is "broken". If you take a level of rogue at
20th level, rogue class skills can be raised to 23 (20th character
level + 3) not just 4 (1st rogue class level + 3).

Hi again,
hehe drifted a wee bit off topic here but it's all good to know. Well now

I

am wondering how useful it would be having a 19/1 Wizard/Thief who has

maxed

UMD. . . Monk armour aside is it that useful/powerful to have this skill
maxed? (for a Wizard?)
Also I was thinking it would be a good move to take the first level as

Thief

in order to get stacks of spare skill points (x4 skill points at start-up
right?), that would be 30-40 skill points in the bag straight away (with
high INT). . . .I could then maybe take the last level as well in Thief

and

spend away all the spare skill points. . . .

I would say that is a good strategy, if you are going to get any thief
levels, make sure your first is a thief level because of the first-level
skill point multiplier. UMD is useful for cleric scrolls and other class
only items, but you could be wanting a high search as well (very good if you
get an elf as it is always on, and since wizard is your favoured class the
level difference won't matter). My first character ended up as an elven
5/15 rogue wizard. was very cool.

Useful advice here:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/game/27528.html

Patrick