OT: SW KotOR, the good, the bad *contains spoilers*

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

The good:

The game is fun. It feels like Star Wars, and I mean original Star Wars
here, not the newer Episodes. The graphics are superb. The NPCs are nicely
laid out, it seems Bioware took the best from BG and NWN and combined that.

The bad:

Only Scoundrel class gets Persuade as class skill ?! That skill is important
as ever, making Scout and Soldier class second class choices. Meelee is
almighty. In the beginning it's wise to rely on blasters for a bit, while
health isn't high yet, but in the long run meelee rules. Shields make
blasters mostly obsolete, and shield-piercing ones like disruptors have way
too low damage. Meelee weapons on the other side have much higher damage
than blasters and shields aren't terribly effective against them, not even
meelee shields. There is no thing similar to NWN's weapon finesse, all
meelee relies on strength. That makes high dexterity builds far less
attractive and almost forces players to invest in strength. Which leads to
the next weak point: Lightsabers are strength based like every other meelee
weapon. That's right, a hilt with a weightless blade is based on strength,
not dexterity. *Major* design flaw here, especially since Jedi can't use
many of their powers while armored, so need high dexterity for AC. At the
same time they have to boost strength to make efficient use of the
lightsaber. And lightsabers rule above all other weapons, so a
blaster-wielding Jedi is a waste. Last not least, the PC is bound to become
a Jedi, limiting the ways to build the char. No matter which class you are
at the start, you must have decent strength, wisdom and charisma, or you'll
suck as Jedi.

Overall KotOR loses against NWN. There are needless design flaws, and the
story forces you into a certain way to build your character, severely
limiting replayability. I'd say one time through on the light side and one
on the dark side and then the game will become uninteresting.

[Barry Scott Will]

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
Only Scoundrel class gets Persuade as class skill ?!

But, as mentioned, you have to become a Jedi and all Jedi classes have
Persuade as a class skill. Not to mention Affect/Dominate mind for Force
Persuade options.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
That skill is important as ever,

Only if you want to play that way. I've played through the game with
characters with no Persuade ability at all and done just fine.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
making Scout and Soldier class second class choices.

Actually, on the KotOR Biobards, Scout is considered the premiere base
class due to free Implant feats, higher saving throws and Repair as a
class skill.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
Meelee is almighty. In the beginning it's wise to rely on blasters

for a bit,

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
while health isn't high yet, but in the long run meelee rules.

Shields make

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
blasters mostly obsolete, and shield-piercing ones like disruptors have way
too low damage.

Ion weapons. I have effectively played a blaster-wielding Jedi. There
are some blasters (heavy weapons) that do more damage than an upgraded
lightsaber and those shields don't absorb much damage before failing,
especially if you hit them with an ion grenade to start.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
There is no thing similar to NWN's weapon finesse, all
meelee relies on strength. That makes high dexterity builds far less
attractive and almost forces players to invest in strength. Which leads to
the next weak point: Lightsabers are strength based like every other meelee
weapon. That's right, a hilt with a weightless blade is based on strength,
not dexterity. *Major* design flaw here, especially since Jedi can't use
many of their powers while armored, so need high dexterity for AC. At the
same time they have to boost strength to make efficient use of the
lightsaber.

Err, not so much. A Jedi's attack bonus with a lightsaber is
automatically taken from either STR or DEX, whichever is higher. Damage
bonuses still come only from STR, but almost all of my builds (seven so
far) have been high-DEX characters and benefitted accordingly. And, with
hyper-adrenal stims (+6 to either STR, DEX or CON instantly) available
all over the place, there's no reason not to have really good scores in
your physical attributes.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
And lightsabers rule above all other weapons, so a
blaster-wielding Jedi is a waste.

Err, not so much, again. Sabers are affected by energy shields (they're
energy weapons), but there are a variety of vibroblades that cut through
shields and do as much damage as a saber. Most of the time, my Jedi
character isn't the most effective fighter in the group. One of the
soldiers equipped with two upgraded vibroblades usually fills that niche.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
Last not least, the PC is bound to become
a Jedi, limiting the ways to build the char. No matter which class you are
at the start, you must have decent strength, wisdom and charisma, or you'll
suck as Jedi.

Err, not so much, yet again. I've built Force-wielding super-studs
(studdesses?), I've also built characters that sucked at wielding the
Force, but it didn't matter because they cut their enemies down so
quickly. Still, the PC gets 40 Force Points free, plus whatever they get
through their Jedi class, so no PC will lack FP.

If I would have to say there's a limiting factor in the game, it is that
there is *so much* combat (ala NWN) and very little of that can be
avoided. (Well, actually, I suppose you could start as a Scoundrel, keep
Stealth maxed out and sneak in everywhere you need to go, but...) So,
regardless of how you build your character, you must have some way of
dispatching enemies, especially since you are required to go solo a few
times. You can't build a total support PC and rely on your companions to
do all the dirty work.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
Overall KotOR loses against NWN. There are needless design flaws, and the
story forces you into a certain way to build your character, severely
limiting replayability. I'd say one time through on the light side and one
on the dark side and then the game will become uninteresting.

The one thing I think is bad in KotOR as compared to NWN is the
interface. I know they claim to have optimized the interface for
keyboard/mouse, but it still looks like a cruddy console interface.
There are no quickslots, for one thing, and I really miss those.

Anyway, I've played through seven times thus far, and am working on my
eighth. Why? Because the story is so deep! It is an incredible story
with so many different layers and interactions.

Did you know you can turn Yuthura Ban and Mekel on Korriban and then
speak with them later on Dantooine? (Only if you do Korriban before
recovering three Star Maps.)

Did you know you can repair HK-47 and improve his stats? (Up to +4 DEX,
+2 Defense and 2 points/round regen.)

Did you know Juhani is a homosexual character and a romance option for
female PCs?

Did you get the upgraded equipment (including special lightsaber
crystals) from Suvam Tan on Yavin IV?

As I said, I've played through seven times and there are still some
things I haven't done yet.

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Barry Scott Will
But, as mentioned, you have to become a Jedi and all Jedi classes have
Persuade as a class skill. Not to mention Affect/Dominate mind for Force
Persuade options.

Force Persuade isn't available in all conversations, and it'll get you dark
side points in several places.

Post by Barry Scott Will
Only if you want to play that way. I've played through the game with
characters with no Persuade ability at all and done just fine.

Well, I guess it's most important for a light side char who is as
non-violent as possible.

Post by Barry Scott Will
Actually, on the KotOR Biobards, Scout is considered the premiere base
class due to free Implant feats, higher saving throws and Repair as a
class skill.

The implants available aren't that great, and the way I play, I absolutely
need the skillpoints a scoundrel gets. I could rely on Mission for security
tasks and on my Astromech droid for comuter spiking and repair. Yet there
are too many areas where I can't switch my party at will, and at least the
droid isn't much of a fighting power, so dragging it along all the time
isn't exactly an option either. So I'm trying to get as many skills
concentrated on my char, which makes Scoundrel class an absolute neccessity.
And why is repair in such high regard as skill ? I rarely need it at all.
One exception is unlocking the memories of HK-47, since only the PC can do
that.

Post by Barry Scott Will
Ion weapons. I have effectively played a blaster-wielding Jedi. There
are some blasters (heavy weapons) that do more damage than an upgraded
lightsaber and those shields don't absorb much damage before failing,
especially if you hit them with an ion grenade to start.

I have Ordo carrying a heavy blaster that does 8-40 damage (mixed damage
types). Still I take enemies out faster, with a dual-bladed lightsaber that
does 6-29 damage per blade. And the ultimately strongest party for combat
purposes consists of me, Bastila and Juhani, all three wielding dual-bladed
lightsabers.

Post by Barry Scott Will
Err, not so much. A Jedi's attack bonus with a lightsaber is
automatically taken from either STR or DEX, whichever is higher. Damage
bonuses still come only from STR, but almost all of my builds (seven so
far) have been high-DEX characters and benefitted accordingly. And, with
hyper-adrenal stims (+6 to either STR, DEX or CON instantly) available
all over the place, there's no reason not to have really good scores in
your physical attributes.

Alright, then I've missed that, since I had already build up Str to some
degree when finally getting a lightsaber. Still, how do you manage on Taris
? I've found it all but impossible getting through there alive with the
meager blasters that are available at the beginning. In fact blasters didn't
start getting a match for lightsabers until after Dantoine, Tatooine and
Kashyyyk. So it's vibroblades for Taris, and those require Str. There's not
the slightest hope to win the duels with Marl, Twitch and Starkiller with
the blasters available on Taris. It's equally hopeless at least against Marl
with low Str meelee.

Post by Barry Scott Will
Err, not so much, again. Sabers are affected by energy shields (they're
energy weapons), but there are a variety of vibroblades that cut through
shields and do as much damage as a saber. Most of the time, my Jedi
character isn't the most effective fighter in the group. One of the
soldiers equipped with two upgraded vibroblades usually fills that niche.

I've seen my lightsabers cut right through shields.

Post by Barry Scott Will
Err, not so much, yet again. I've built Force-wielding super-studs
(studdesses?), I've also built characters that sucked at wielding the
Force, but it didn't matter because they cut their enemies down so
quickly. Still, the PC gets 40 Force Points free, plus whatever they get
through their Jedi class, so no PC will lack FP.

At the beginning the PC does lack FP. Using a healing power twice already
depletes them.

Post by Barry Scott Will
The one thing I think is bad in KotOR as compared to NWN is the
interface. I know they claim to have optimized the interface for
keyboard/mouse, but it still looks like a cruddy console interface.
There are no quickslots, for one thing, and I really miss those.

Hm, I don't. The four categorized buttons on the lower right are enough for
me. The only thing I miss is the ability to go where I click. Why must I
move using the keyboard instead of simple mouseclicks ? Other than that I
prefer the action buttons on targets and the quick buttons down right far
more than the quickbars and radial menus of NWN. The KotOR interface handles
far better, since it's a lot easier to use the scroll wheel to scroll
through the avilable items per button than working through the radial menus
of NWN or having to remember on which of the 3 quickbar the button you need
is in NWN and pressing the right key in the middle of combat.

Post by Barry Scott Will
Anyway, I've played through seven times thus far, and am working on my
eighth. Why? Because the story is so deep! It is an incredible story
with so many different layers and interactions.

I will restart it today, since I've made several mistakes building my party
members. Yet still I'm sure I'll play it completely through once or twice,
not more.

Post by Barry Scott Will
Did you know you can turn Yuthura Ban and Mekel on Korriban and then
speak with them later on Dantooine? (Only if you do Korriban before
recovering three Star Maps.)

No, thanks for the hint.

Post by Barry Scott Will
Did you know you can repair HK-47 and improve his stats? (Up to +4 DEX,
+2 Defense and 2 points/round regen.)

Yes. My current char has a too low repar skill though, and I don't know if
it's worth the bother. My best fighters are the Jedi anyway, and those can
be healed using the force instead of using up repair kits.

Post by Barry Scott Will
Did you know Juhani is a homosexual character and a romance option for
female PCs?

I noticed.

Post by Barry Scott Will
Did you get the upgraded equipment (including special lightsaber
crystals) from Suvam Tan on Yavin IV?

Not yet, since he hasn't got them available till after the fifth starmap. I
do have other stuff from him. Though buying items is a real royal pain in
this game, since I never have enough credits. To equip my chars the way I
want, I'd have to burn more than 200000 credits. That's an awful ot of
Pazaak, even with the wagers of a Suvam Tan. I'm considering to skip that
and use a money cheat instead.

Post by Barry Scott Will
As I said, I've played through seven times and there are still some
things I haven't done yet.

Some things I've actually given up, since they're too frustrating to do.
Like Tatooine swoop racing. Top time to beat on that track is 22:57. The
best time I can get on the course is 22:61. And that's set in stone. I've
managed that time 3 times so far, but never got lower.

[Barry Scott Will]

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel

Post by Barry Scott Will
But, as mentioned, you have to become a Jedi and all Jedi classes have
Persuade as a class skill. Not to mention Affect/Dominate mind for Force
Persuade options.

Force Persuade isn't available in all conversations, and it'll get you dark
side points in several places.

No, it isn't always available, but it is available for the "important"
conversations, and, used properly, won't earn any DS points (you can
even earn LS points in some situations).

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel

Post by Barry Scott Will
Actually, on the KotOR Biobards, Scout is considered the premiere base
class due to free Implant feats, higher saving throws and Repair as a
class skill.

The implants available aren't that great, and the way I play, I absolutely
need the skillpoints a scoundrel gets.

Scoundrels get only 1 more skill point per level than a Scout, and lose
CU, Repair and Treat Injury as class skills. Those are, IMO, more
important than Stealth, Security and Persuade. And the level 3 implants
are fantastic (+4 CON is my favorite, 40 VP is 40 VP).

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
I could rely on Mission for security
tasks and on my Astromech droid for comuter spiking and repair. Yet there
are too many areas where I can't switch my party at will, and at least the
droid isn't much of a fighting power, so dragging it along all the time
isn't exactly an option either.

Well, despite the fact that I, like you, like to have a nice mixture of
skills for my PC, the truth is, most of those skills have little real
use in KotOR beyond role-playing. Slicing computers? Have T3 make spikes
for you and, once he stops, go put your spikes in a bin in the cargo
hold and get him to make more. With unlimited free spikes, you don't
need much CU skill to slice a computer. Picking locks? Bash works
equally well. Repairing droids? Well, it's fun, but of little real use.
Stealth? Mission can get a little bit of use from in on Taris, but
beyond that there's not much sneaking around to be done. About the only
real necessary skills are Demolitions, Awareness and Treat Injury. And
you can even get by without the first two (like NWN, most characters can
run over mines without worry).

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
So I'm trying to get as many skills
concentrated on my char, which makes Scoundrel class an absolute neccessity.
And why is repair in such high regard as skill ? I rarely need it at all.
One exception is unlocking the memories of HK-47, since only the PC can do
that.

I can appreciate the role-playing aspect of using skill points (my
favorite combo is a Scout/Sentinel for just that reason). But going
without is a different playing experience (replayability :) )

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
I have Ordo carrying a heavy blaster that does 8-40 damage (mixed damage
types). Still I take enemies out faster, with a dual-bladed lightsaber that
does 6-29 damage per blade. And the ultimately strongest party for combat
purposes consists of me, Bastila and Juhani, all three wielding dual-bladed
lightsabers.

Canderous is wasted on ranged weapons. Level him up with melee weapons
in mind, give him dual Baragwin Assault Blades, some STR-boosting items
and watch him make mince-meat of his opponents. The best ranged fighter
is probably Mission, because of her Sneak Attack damage. Give her some
decent rifles (so you don't need to invest in Dueling or TWF feats) and
she rocks.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
Alright, then I've missed that, since I had already build up Str to some
degree when finally getting a lightsaber. Still, how do you manage on Taris
? I've found it all but impossible getting through there alive with the
meager blasters that are available at the beginning.

I do it all the time, including winning all the duels (except
Starkiller, but I avoid him because of the DS points--the one time I
played a DS, it was a high-STR melee fighter and she beat him easily).
The key to the duels is to use an alacrity stim to boost your DEX (thus
your Defense) and speed and shields against the ranged duelists. Against
Marl, run-turn-shoot-run-turn-shoot works very well. (OK, it's tedious,
but no one says you have to stand toe-to-toe with they guy...)

There are a number of decent blasters available on Taris. Carth's
upgradeable blaster is nice, as is Zaalbar's upgradeable bowcaster.
There's a light repeating blaster for sale at the merchant outside your
hideout. Etc. I typically invest in TWF feats early (since I like to
dual-wield sabers), and using two blaster pistols is pretty effective.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
I've seen my lightsabers cut right through shields.

Yes, most of the shields only absorb 20 or 30 points of damage, and your
saber is probably doing more than that per hit. Yet another reason the
fact your enemies use shielding is not that big a deal.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
At the beginning the PC does lack FP. Using a healing power twice already
depletes them.

Well, there's one way around this--you don't have to level up on Taris.
It's fairly easy to start Dantooine with 5 or 6 Jedi levels, by which
point you have plenty of powers and the points to use them. Plus,
Dantooine doesn't require much in the way of force usage. About all you
really have to fight are some kath hounds and a few Mandalorians, and
they're not much trouble. As for healing powers, I never use them for my
PC. Medpacks work much better individually, and, as long as one of my
Jedi companions has Heal, I don't need it for myself.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
Though buying items is a real royal pain in
this game, since I never have enough credits. To equip my chars the way I
want, I'd have to burn more than 200000 credits. That's an awful ot of
Pazaak, even with the wagers of a Suvam Tan. I'm considering to skip that
and use a money cheat instead.

You don't really need to equip everybody. You can always switch
equipment around between them. E.g. Canderous and Carth can share armor.
Carth and Mission can share blasters (or Mission and HK). You don't need
to spend a lot buying things for Bastila to wear, etc. Also, are you
selling everything to Tan as well? He pays much, much better (especially
after you rescue him). E.g. Tatooine racing bonds sell for 60 credits
everywhere else, Tan pays 156 credits. He'll pay hundreds for all those
saber crystals you collect. Also, beat him as Pazaak 10 times and he'll
give you a 20% discount on everything. ('Course, I never actually
managed that. I think the computer cheats.)

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
Some things I've actually given up, since they're too frustrating to do.
Like Tatooine swoop racing. Top time to beat on that track is 22:57. The
best time I can get on the course is 22:61. And that's set in stone. I've
managed that time 3 times so far, but never got lower.

That's interesting. On both Tatooine and Manaan, the best time is 22:51
in my game. I can beat that score, though it usually takes a half-dozen
or so tries. The 7500 credits on Manaan is nice, but the racing bonds on
Tatooine are a real haul (sell tham to Tan for a total of 18,720
credits). What I don't like about swoop racing is beating all three
times on the first tier, but only being recognized for beating the first
tier so I still have to race against the second and third tier times.

I don't play Pazaak much because I'm convinced the computer cheats (it
already gets an advantage since you always go first). I know some people
have developed a strategy for it, but I am rarely able to win.

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Barry Scott Will
Scoundrels get only 1 more skill point per level than a Scout, and lose
CU, Repair and Treat Injury as class skills. Those are, IMO, more
important than Stealth, Security and Persuade. And the level 3 implants
are fantastic (+4 CON is my favorite, 40 VP is 40 VP).

For me Persuade is the most important skill of all. Security is a matter of
style. I like picking stuff better than bashing it. Treat Injury is the one
skill I can do completely without. Initially health is still so low that one
or two standard medpacks are enough, even at zero TI skill. And later I have
the Heal force power available on all my Jedi and don't need any more
medpacks at all.

Post by Barry Scott Will
Well, despite the fact that I, like you, like to have a nice mixture of
skills for my PC, the truth is, most of those skills have little real
use in KotOR beyond role-playing. Slicing computers? Have T3 make spikes
for you and, once he stops, go put your spikes in a bin in the cargo
hold and get him to make more. With unlimited free spikes, you don't
need much CU skill to slice a computer. Picking locks? Bash works
equally well. Repairing droids? Well, it's fun, but of little real use.
Stealth? Mission can get a little bit of use from in on Taris, but
beyond that there's not much sneaking around to be done. About the only
real necessary skills are Demolitions, Awareness and Treat Injury. And
you can even get by without the first two (like NWN, most characters can
run over mines without worry).

Stealth is very useful to get sneak attacks. And repairing droids nets nice
XP. As said above, TI is a skill I don't waste points for.

Post by Barry Scott Will
I do it all the time, including winning all the duels (except
Starkiller, but I avoid him because of the DS points--the one time I
played a DS, it was a high-STR melee fighter and she beat him easily).
The key to the duels is to use an alacrity stim to boost your DEX (thus
your Defense) and speed and shields against the ranged duelists. Against
Marl, run-turn-shoot-run-turn-shoot works very well. (OK, it's tedious,
but no one says you have to stand toe-to-toe with they guy...)

With my new char I took out the whole range of duelists at level 3, except
Starkiller, who I took on at level 5. Ice and Twitch fell to my Grenades,
the fighters before Ice are pushovers anyway. With Marl I went toe to toe
with the prototype vibroblade (with 2 upgrades) and buffed up. Same with
Starkiller, since I don't like constantly outrunning grenades all the time.
Starkiller is the only time that I willingly accept DS points. As the Hutt
says, the irony of collecting a bounty that's on his head because of his
deathmatches in a deathmatch is too good to pass up.

Post by Barry Scott Will
There are a number of decent blasters available on Taris. Carth's
upgradeable blaster is nice, as is Zaalbar's upgradeable bowcaster.
There's a light repeating blaster for sale at the merchant outside your
hideout. Etc. I typically invest in TWF feats early (since I like to
dual-wield sabers), and using two blaster pistols is pretty effective.

You forgot Bendaks blaster, but you only get it if you duel him.

Post by Barry Scott Will
Well, there's one way around this--you don't have to level up on Taris.
It's fairly easy to start Dantooine with 5 or 6 Jedi levels, by which
point you have plenty of powers and the points to use them. Plus,
Dantooine doesn't require much in the way of force usage. About all you
really have to fight are some kath hounds and a few Mandalorians, and
they're not much trouble. As for healing powers, I never use them for my
PC. Medpacks work much better individually, and, as long as one of my
Jedi companions has Heal, I don't need it for myself.

No need to save levels. After a few Jedi levels the FP are enough.

Post by Barry Scott Will
That's interesting. On both Tatooine and Manaan, the best time is 22:51
in my game. I can beat that score, though it usually takes a half-dozen
or so tries. The 7500 credits on Manaan is nice, but the racing bonds on
Tatooine are a real haul (sell tham to Tan for a total of 18,720
credits). What I don't like about swoop racing is beating all three
times on the first tier, but only being recognized for beating the first
tier so I still have to race against the second and third tier times.

I have absolutely no chance...
I have a theory though. The game might base the time you have to beat on
what you achieved in the winning run on Taris. Probably a good idea not to
be too speedy there :)

Post by Barry Scott Will
I don't play Pazaak much because I'm convinced the computer cheats (it
already gets an advantage since you always go first). I know some people
have developed a strategy for it, but I am rarely able to win.

My whole strategy is my sidedeck. 2 cards of +-2, +-3, +-4, +-5 and 1 card
each of +-1 and +-6. And if the opponent gets a 20 and hasn't won 2 sets
yet, then I rather let him win the set, instead of wasting a hand card for a
tie. The computer does seem to get 20s from the draw alone a bit too
frequently, but usually I'm able to win the game.

[Barry Scott Will]

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
No need to save levels. After a few Jedi levels the FP are enough.

I actually like doing so if starting as a Scoundrel or Soldier. For
Scouts, I take all 8 levels on Taris for the good saves and free Implant
feats. But for Soldier or Scoundrel, I like a 4/16 or 5/15 split.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
I have a theory though. The game might base the time you have to beat on
what you achieved in the winning run on Taris. Probably a good idea not to
be too speedy there :)

It's possible, because I've seen different third-tier times posted on
the Bioboards. But mine are always 22:51, regardless how I play Taris,
and I've beaten Taris at +30 seconds, so I'm not sure what the deal is...

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
My whole strategy is my sidedeck. 2 cards of +-2, +-3, +-4, +-5 and 1 card
each of +-1 and +-6. And if the opponent gets a 20 and hasn't won 2 sets
yet, then I rather let him win the set, instead of wasting a hand card for a
tie.

I'll have to give that a try. The 20% discount on Yavin is pretty juicy...

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Barry Scott Will
I actually like doing so if starting as a Scoundrel or Soldier. For
Scouts, I take all 8 levels on Taris for the good saves and free Implant
feats. But for Soldier or Scoundrel, I like a 4/16 or 5/15 split.

I managed to squeeze 9 levels out of Taris this time, so I'm going 9/11
Scoundrel/Sentinel.

Post by Barry Scott Will
It's possible, because I've seen different third-tier times posted on
the Bioboards. But mine are always 22:51, regardless how I play Taris,
and I've beaten Taris at +30 seconds, so I'm not sure what the deal is...

Difficulty setting maybe ?

Post by Barry Scott Will

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
My whole strategy is my sidedeck. 2 cards of +-2, +-3, +-4, +-5 and 1 card
each of +-1 and +-6. And if the opponent gets a 20 and hasn't won 2 sets
yet, then I rather let him win the set, instead of wasting a hand card for a
tie.

I'll have to give that a try. The 20% discount on Yavin is pretty juicy...

I just got that. It was still a win/lose ratio of 60:40, but the game only
counts the victories and doesn't subtract the losses.

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

LOL, I just achieved 100 LS points. On Korriban no less :)

[Barry Scott Will]

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel

Post by Barry Scott Will
I'll have to give that a try. The 20% discount on Yavin is pretty juicy...

I just got that. It was still a win/lose ratio of 60:40, but the game only
counts the victories and doesn't subtract the losses.

Well, I finally beat him and got the discount. I think, maybe, I got a
50/50 ratio (I wasn't counting) and that was with a few reloads after
long losing streaks. :sigh: Too much effort on something that isn't
really any fun for too little reward.

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Barry Scott Will
Well, I finally beat him and got the discount. I think, maybe, I got a
50/50 ratio (I wasn't counting) and that was with a few reloads after
long losing streaks. :sigh: Too much effort on something that isn't
really any fun for too little reward.

Exactly why I resorted to a money cheat. It is possible to get the money
together by legal means, but it isn't worth the time and effort. I've spent
about 300000 credits on the final equipment of my party, but at the end I
had them all in top of the line gear. Somehow I didn't get the shop at the
Korriban cantina open for me, though. According to a walkthrough it might be
that I triggered Juhani's side quest too early. It said that the shop will
be unavailable if you trigger that quest before you've been on the
Leviathan. On the Bioware boards some people say you cannot finish the quest
if you don't get it before the Leviathan. Very confusing that. And in the
end it leaves me with the impression that there's still a major bug in the
game coding or scripting, linking those two events, even if they shouldn't
be linked. Well, I guess the current 1.02 patch won't be the last. I do hope
that in some upgrade they'll give us a few more weapon upgrades. In the end
I had enough crystals and lightsabers to outfit an army of Jedi. I preferred
double-bladed ones for all 4 Jedi characters though. Also I had loads of
hair trigger parts for blasters, but only 3 complete sets of all 4 upgrades.
Not too bad, considering that the droids were the only ones using ranged
weaponry in the end. The Baragwin weapon I gave to HK-47 is unusually good
for a ranged weapon. Over 20 points of physical damage when fully upgraded,
ignoring shields. A really viable alternative to vibroblades. But there are
also only 3 complete upgrade sets for meelee weapons, which is not so nice
since I have 4 non-Jedi characters to kit out.

Well, it's time to run through on the dark side. And this time Korriban
comes first and then Manaan. In the light side game I was slightly annoyed
when Malak bombed the academy on Dantoine into oblivion before I had a
chance to talk to Mekel there or get the bounty for Hulak. And I was even
more annoyed at Bastila's side quest staying unfinished business, just
because I had chosen to visit Tatooine last. The XP in the game is plentiful
anyway. Even the party NPCs hit level 20 after the opening battle on the
starforge, still in the hangar. Btw., my Scoundrel/Sentinel did pretty well.
I could even repair HK-47 fully. Only 10 in repair, but another 10 through
equipment. Btw., what's the necessary event to trigger the core memory of
HK-47, which you cannot get through repairing him ?

[Barry Scott Will]

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
Somehow I didn't get the shop at the
Korriban cantina open for me, though. According to a walkthrough it might be
that I triggered Juhani's side quest too early. It said that the shop will
be unavailable if you trigger that quest before you've been on the
Leviathan. On the Bioware boards some people say you cannot finish the quest
if you don't get it before the Leviathan. Very confusing that.

You have to trigger the first meeting with Xor before the Leviathan.
However, if you avoid leaving the ship with Juhani after that, you can
put off the final confrontation with Xor until after Leviathan. This
give you both her quest and the premium merchant on Korriban.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
I could even repair HK-47 fully. Only 10 in repair, but another 10 through
equipment. Btw., what's the necessary event to trigger the core memory of
HK-47, which you cannot get through repairing him ?

The revelation of your true identity is that stimulus. It doesn't really
"unlock" anything except some additional conversation options. Also, you
have to complete his repairs before this revelation, otherwise you don't
get the chance to do so (he tells you his memory is fully restored, but
you don't get the benefit of the enhancements unless you manually do the
repairs beforehand).

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Barry Scott Will
You have to trigger the first meeting with Xor before the Leviathan.
However, if you avoid leaving the ship with Juhani after that, you can
put off the final confrontation with Xor until after Leviathan. This
give you both her quest and the premium merchant on Korriban.

Ah thanks, I'll try that the next time. I wish it would take a little less
conversations with each of the NPCs before their quests commence. Maybe I'll
zip between the planets a bit more next time. Seems like each hyperspace
flight allows a new conversation.

Post by Barry Scott Will
The revelation of your true identity is that stimulus. It doesn't really
"unlock" anything except some additional conversation options. Also, you
have to complete his repairs before this revelation, otherwise you don't
get the chance to do so (he tells you his memory is fully restored, but
you don't get the benefit of the enhancements unless you manually do the
repairs beforehand).

Hm, he didn't have to say anything new after the revelation of my identity
last time, and I didn't get the necessary repair skill for the final repair
until after I had all 5 starmaps and could get the +7 headgear from Suvam
Tan. 17 in repair is near impossible before that without repair being a
class skill. I do see the merit of taking a scout meanwhile. It took no more
than 15 in security to get pass all pickable locks, which a scout can easily
achieve, since some +4 gear is available early. I might skip demolitions
skill next time. Even with that skill at 15 and + gear quite a few mines
blew up on the disarm attempt last time. But they didn't hurt much, so I
guess I can as well simply trigger them right from the start. I might try
5/15 scout/consular for the evil path. With a load of evil force powers I
don't need much fighting feats, since all battles can be easily fought with
the force alone. Especially droid battles become wuite the joke with the
line of droid destroying force powers. Cuts right through shields, the
droid's AC doesn't matter, the damage is high and the FP cost low.

[Barry Scott Will]

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
I might skip demolitions
skill next time. Even with that skill at 15 and + gear quite a few mines
blew up on the disarm attempt last time. But they didn't hurt much, so I
guess I can as well simply trigger them right from the start.

Mission is quite the little mine recoverer. I keep her
Demolitions/Awareness skills maxed and equip her with the boosting gear
and take her around through all the heavily mined areas. She recovers
them all and then all I need is a high enough Demoltions to lay them. :)
She can even recover the deadly plasma mines on the Unknown World around
the wrecked spaceship.

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
Especially droid battles become wuite the joke with the
line of droid destroying force powers. Cuts right through shields, the
droid's AC doesn't matter, the damage is high and the FP cost low.

The droid series are LS powers and will cost quite a bit more for a DS
character, but a 15-level consular will have enough points not to care.
And they are quite dandy (Wave works well against them as well).

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
I have absolutely no chance...
I have a theory though. The game might base the time you have to beat on
what you achieved in the winning run on Taris. Probably a good idea not to
be too speedy there :)

Hm, guess I've proven that in my current game. I did too well on Taris for
my own good. Now the record time on Manaan sat at 22:50 even. And that
course is plain mean. The obstacles are sometimes hard to see, and some sit
right behind a row of 2 or 3 accelerater platforms. You get catapulted right
into them. Also the accelerators platforms are so little off the straight
line in most parts of the track that I oversteer and miss a lot.

Bottom line: I'll never ever be champion on either Manaan or Tatooine. Maybe
I'm just losing because I'm playing on a below minspec CPU and so the
controls are a bit too lame. I'll never know until I have a new computer,
and that's something I really can't afford right now.

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Barry Scott Will
Did you know you can turn Yuthura Ban and Mekel on Korriban and then
speak with them later on Dantooine? (Only if you do Korriban before
recovering three Star Maps.)

Hm, I did Korriban as third planet after Dantooine and Kashyyyk (seemed
fitting in difficulty, Tatooine as third is definitely harder), but I only
got to turn Mekel. The option never showed up for Yuthura. I only had the
choices to kill her (DS) or let her live (LS). I've reloaded a couple of
times and explored all dialogue options. No turning. Even though a
walkthrough I looked at to make sure says it's possible....

[Barry Scott Will]

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
Hm, I did Korriban as third planet after Dantooine and Kashyyyk (seemed
fitting in difficulty, Tatooine as third is definitely harder), but I only
got to turn Mekel. The option never showed up for Yuthura. I only had the
choices to kill her (DS) or let her live (LS). I've reloaded a couple of
times and explored all dialogue options. No turning. Even though a
walkthrough I looked at to make sure says it's possible....

I think what you have to do (only time I managed this I did this) is to
fully explore her dialogue options *before* you complete the Sith
trials. I.e. when you're still "in training" there are options to lead
her through the story of her past and how she became a Sith. If you've
done that, you get a different conversation with her in Sadow's tomb.

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Barry Scott Will
I think what you have to do (only time I managed this I did this) is to
fully explore her dialogue options *before* you complete the Sith
trials. I.e. when you're still "in training" there are options to lead
her through the story of her past and how she became a Sith. If you've
done that, you get a different conversation with her in Sadow's tomb.

Alright, missed that. Maybe I'm in for another run through on the light
side, but only after I've done a run along the dark. For now I realized how
stupid it was to take 9 Scoundrel levels on Taris. Yes, it's handy to have
the skillpoints, but I just realized that being stuck at Jedi level 11 I
won't even get the highest automatic powers, since they require level 12....

My dark char will probaly with less skillpoints. For once I'll skip
security, a dark char is more in line bashing stuff instead of picking it.
I'll love the dark powers for sure. On my current game I had Jolee learn
some dark ones. Being neutral he's the perfect candidate for the best of the
two worlds.

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
My dark char will probaly with less skillpoints.

Meh, that's the kind of crap I post when it's 3 in the morning. Spelling
*and* grammar...oh well.

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Barry Scott Will
Did you know Juhani is a homosexual character and a romance option for
female PCs?

Wow, seems she even doesn't mind a threesome. When I came back from the
temple and was still on the light side, Carth confessed his love to my char
outside the Ebon Hawk. As soon as we were all inside again and I took a last
time to talk to all before flying to the starforge, Juhani had her coming
out as well. I'll play my dark side run as male and romance Bastila.
Although.... A Sith Lord in love with his apprentice ? Inherent weakness and
inevitable fall.

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
Wow, seems she even doesn't mind a threesome. When I came back from the
temple and was still on the light side, Carth confessed his love to my char
outside the Ebon Hawk. As soon as we were all inside again and I took a last
time to talk to all before flying to the starforge, Juhani had her coming
out as well. I'll play my dark side run as male and romance Bastila.
Although.... A Sith Lord in love with his apprentice ? Inherent weakness and
inevitable fall.

Boy, did Bioware listen when people asked for more evil options. I'm almost
all the way down to dark mastery after Dantoine already. And the way the
dialogue allows me to twist peoples minds, especially Bastilas, is
hilarious. And I'm literally sowing chaos where I go. Baddest thing up to
now was the Matale Sandral feud. I knew it was possible to mess things up
there pretty bad, but I didn't dream that it would be possible to wipe out
both families without firing a single shot or striking a single blow. Mere
conversation and the two old hotheads blast first the children then each
other.

[Barry Scott Will]

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
Boy, did Bioware listen when people asked for more evil options. I'm almost
all the way down to dark mastery after Dantoine already. And the way the
dialogue allows me to twist peoples minds, especially Bastilas, is
hilarious. And I'm literally sowing chaos where I go.

Yup. Some of the dark side options are very tempting, even when playing
pure LS. And wait until you get yourself permanently expelled from Manaan...

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Barry Scott Will
Yup. Some of the dark side options are very tempting, even when playing
pure LS. And wait until you get yourself permanently expelled from Manaan...

I won't :)
There actually is a dialogue thread in which you can force the judges to
allow you to return, even if you use the poison. Right now I'm on Korriban
and have found the dialogue options I missed with Yuthura last time. Of
course as the coming dark lord I have no intention to use that to turn her,
but it'll be handy, should I decide that I'll do the third run with a LS
fighter/guardian like I've been considering. That one would then be a
fighting machine with force speed and master flurry as main attack....and
probably be locked out from a few game options, since that class combo gets
extremely low skillpoints. My scout/consular already has a problem with
that. For heavily skill based play there simply isn't any alternative to a
8/12 scoundrel/sentinel.

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
I won't :)
There actually is a dialogue thread in which you can force the judges to
allow you to return, even if you use the poison. Right now I'm on Korriban
and have found the dialogue options I missed with Yuthura last time. Of
course as the coming dark lord I have no intention to use that to turn her,
but it'll be handy, should I decide that I'll do the third run with a LS
fighter/guardian like I've been considering. That one would then be a
fighting machine with force speed and master flurry as main attack....and
probably be locked out from a few game options, since that class combo gets
extremely low skillpoints. My scout/consular already has a problem with
that. For heavily skill based play there simply isn't any alternative to a
8/12 scoundrel/sentinel.

Oi, still haven't figured out a way to get all the quests. This time I seem
to have blocked out the one with Carth's son. I guess Dustil can no longer
appear in the Sith academy after I have laid waste to it. And I did Korriban
as first world this time. Maybe the only surefire way to get all the quests
done before some events invariably make it impossible for some is doing all
five planets right up to where I'd discover the starmap next, but stop right
there and do the sidequests before. With the exception of Juhani's quest of
course, which I'll complete after the leviathan.

[Barry Scott Will]

Post by Dirk Dreidoppel
Oi, still haven't figured out a way to get all the quests. This time I seem
to have blocked out the one with Carth's son. I guess Dustil can no longer
appear in the Sith academy after I have laid waste to it. And I did Korriban
as first world this time. Maybe the only surefire way to get all the quests
done before some events invariably make it impossible for some is doing all
five planets right up to where I'd discover the starmap next, but stop right
there and do the sidequests before. With the exception of Juhani's quest of
course, which I'll complete after the leviathan.

You can do that, except on Korriban. Once you enter the Sith Academy,
you have to obtain the Star Map to get out. So what I do is Tatooine
(you can kill the dragon and loot the cave, but don't click the Map);
Kashyyyk (you can do everything except talk to the Rakatan
computer--it's interesting to do this after Leviathan because the
computer then recognizes you and you get a completely different
dialogue); Manaan (I've heard you can enter and clear the Hrakert
station and then leave without the Star Map, but it's so annoying doing
the underwater stuff, that I just save the whole underwater bits until
later); and finally Korriban where I actually obtain the Star Map.

This way, you can advance far enough in everyone's dialogues to trigger
their quests, but you haven't triggered Leviathan yet because you've not
been obtaining Star Maps. This is also a good method for being able to
go back and talk to Yuthura and Mekel on Dantooine (if you choose to
turn them).

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Barry Scott Will
You can do that, except on Korriban. Once you enter the Sith Academy,
you have to obtain the Star Map to get out.

What do you mean with get out ? Out of the academy or off the planet ? I can
freely walk all the way between the Ebon Hawk and the tombs after admittance
into the academy. I didn't try to fly elsewhere though.

Post by Barry Scott Will
So what I do is Tatooine
(you can kill the dragon and loot the cave, but don't click the Map);
Kashyyyk (you can do everything except talk to the Rakatan
computer--it's interesting to do this after Leviathan because the
computer then recognizes you and you get a completely different
dialogue); Manaan (I've heard you can enter and clear the Hrakert
station and then leave without the Star Map, but it's so annoying doing
the underwater stuff, that I just save the whole underwater bits until
later); and finally Korriban where I actually obtain the Star Map.

Hm, too bad. Korriban was remarkably easy directly after Dantooine and
brought me all the way to level 15 already. Tatooine on the other hand is
what I consider the hardest planet. Those desert wraids are tough and the
sand people as well. And there are lots and lots of them.

Post by Barry Scott Will
This way, you can advance far enough in everyone's dialogues to trigger
their quests, but you haven't triggered Leviathan yet because you've not
been obtaining Star Maps. This is also a good method for being able to
go back and talk to Yuthura and Mekel on Dantooine (if you choose to
turn them).

Exactly what I've been looking for :)
Well, in my current game Korriban is done for good *shrug*. I'm now doing
Kashyyyk as second world and will then go to Tatooine. I have both Bastila's
and Ordo's quests there active, as well as brother Biff. So far only
Juhani's and Carth's quests haven't been triggered. Jolee I've yet to
collect, but his quest gets triggered on Manaan any time anyway. Manaan is
the last world. A *lot* of stuff to do there, and all other quests will be
done before the Leviathan. The Genoharadan bounty on Dantooine is collected,
so I need not return there anymore, since Yuthura and Mekel are both dead.
Bit sad that Uthar's old master actually lets you go when you answer his
questions "correctly". I had hoped for something along the line "You did
well, but since Mekel's dead now, it's time for you to suffer." Oh well.