Discussion:
Barbarian vs Fighter
(too old to reply)
Lance Berg
2005-12-20 12:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Barbarian is a class I've not done much with, it wasn't really an option
back when I was playing tabletop AD&D, and I've pretty much ignored it
in NwN. Recently though I've been playing a lot of NwN, which makes me
want to try different classes or combinations of classes, so I'm finally
getting around to some of the things I've neglected.

I tried a couple of half barbarian half something else builds, and just
got thru playing a module where I kept it pure barbarian.

I still don't have a firm idea of what a barbarian is and how it differs
from a Fighter.

I mean, it looks to me like a barbarian is a fighter with slightly fewer
feats, but a couple class abilities to make up for that; you run faster
and get rage a few times per day.

You don't automatically get Heavy Armor as a feat, but you can still buy
it and there doesn't seem to be any penalty for wearing it (well, no
penalty that wouldn't be the same for a Fighter).

And then there's the uncanny dodge thing. Dodge is available as a feat,
and relies on a high dex to be worth mentioning, bonuses to reflex saves
don't strike me as particularly important...

And the damage reduction, but that doesn't start till 11, builds from 1
point to a max of 4 points at level 20. Now I know DR is a wonderful
thing, but this seems like pretty small fry by these levels, where I'm
worried about bad guys hitting me in 20 or 40 damage per shot. And it
seems like DR is something you can find fairly easily on items by this
level range (because it -is- good to be able to shrug off hordes of
light hitting minions while concentrating on the major baddies)

My point here isn't "you should never play a barbarian" nor "you should
always play a barbarian" but rather, "aren't they pretty much
interchangable?" I mean, the differences between a dex based fighter
and a str based fighter seem larger to me than the difference between a
str based fighter and a str based barbarian!

From a role playing standpoint, barbarians tend to have a different
cultural shtick going on... but in a multiclassing environment, exactly
how primitive does the barb/wizard or barb/bard end up? Isn't he really
doing the "shuck and jive" hamming up the "primative fish out of water"
angle that isn't really true?

I seem to recall looking at barbarians in earlier editions of AD&D and
seeing them as both unfamiliar with magic and superstiously opposed to
it. I don't see anything like that in NwN; unless you made a module
where every magic item had a potential user list that left barbarian out.

Lance
Kelakhai
2005-12-20 13:50:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
My point here isn't "you should never play a barbarian" nor "you should
always play a barbarian" but rather, "aren't they pretty much
interchangable?" I mean, the differences between a dex based fighter
and a str based fighter seem larger to me than the difference between a
str based fighter and a str based barbarian!
Since there are no prestige class available in NwN, Barbarian is nothing
compared to the warrior. And the difference gets bigger when you reach
epic levels.

If there were any of the prestige class available in the D&D3.0 or 3.5
edition, it would really be a great class to begin with. Now I really
don't see the point of the barbarian ...

Some will say 'Rage !' I answer that weapon spec and martial spec is
like a permanent-rage power of the warrior ... Speed ? How about boots
of rapidity ? DR ? It's nothing, especially when you reach level 20.

When we'll see more prestige class, the barbarian will become ... Well,
I say : "Available". I did a warrior/weapon master, yeah, THIS is a
great deal when level 21 you hit hard as 55 dmg in one shot and over 160
dmg on critical 13-20 ... You can't hit that hard with a barbarian, it
doesn't earn enough feats ...

I'll wait prestige classes ... Besides there are no alignement
obligation to warrior whereas barbarian are chaotic, and since there are
no "roleplay" changes to barbarian through classic chaotic warrior, I
really see no point.

Kelakhai
Lance Berg
2005-12-20 21:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kelakhai
Post by Lance Berg
My point here isn't "you should never play a barbarian" nor "you
should always play a barbarian" but rather, "aren't they pretty much
interchangable?" I mean, the differences between a dex based fighter
and a str based fighter seem larger to me than the difference between
a str based fighter and a str based barbarian!
Since there are no prestige class available in NwN, Barbarian is nothing
compared to the warrior. And the difference gets bigger when you reach
epic levels.
When I say NwN, I really mean "NwN plus SOU plus HoTU." So I'm not sure
what you mean when you say "no prestige class available", unless you
thought I meant the original NwN alone. SOU introduces 5 prestige
classes and HoTU 5 more... and epic levels too.
Post by Kelakhai
If there were any of the prestige class available in the D&D3.0 or 3.5
edition, it would really be a great class to begin with. Now I really
don't see the point of the barbarian ...
Which AD&D prestige classes are you thinking of here, that make
Barbarians worthwhile in a way that they aren't in NWN (or even as a
class by themselves?)
Post by Kelakhai
Some will say 'Rage !' I answer that weapon spec and martial spec is
like a permanent-rage power of the warrior ... Speed ? How about boots
of rapidity ? DR ? It's nothing, especially when you reach level 20.
No boots of rapidity in NwN unless maybe someone designed them for their
own module. Boots of speed... but speed stacks with raised run speed
doesn't it?
Post by Kelakhai
When we'll see more prestige class, the barbarian will become ... Well,
I say : "Available". I did a warrior/weapon master, yeah, THIS is a
great deal when level 21 you hit hard as 55 dmg in one shot and over 160
dmg on critical 13-20 ... You can't hit that hard with a barbarian, it
doesn't earn enough feats ...
My bard/fighter/RDD does this kind of damage too, tons of fun.
Post by Kelakhai
I'll wait prestige classes ... Besides there are no alignement
obligation to warrior whereas barbarian are chaotic, and since there are
no "roleplay" changes to barbarian through classic chaotic warrior, I
really see no point.
I'd think roleplay would be the main difference between the two classes,
although honestly I don't see what would keep you from roleplaying a
"barbarian" while playing a fighter.

I do notice one other thing we're overlooking, fighters get D10 hp while
Barbarians get D12. 20% better HP totals...

Lance
a***@yahoo.com
2005-12-20 22:04:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
I do notice one other thing we're overlooking, fighters get D10 hp while
Barbarians get D12. 20% better HP totals...
Not quite 20%, average for d10 is 5.5/lvl, d12 is 6.5.

Its skewed a bit more since NWN gives (IIRC) max HP for the first three
levels and there's a minimum of half (again, IIRC) on the non-hardcore
settings.

But the fighter gets so many feats that burning one or two on (not sure
of the name) Improved Toughness? the one that gets you 20 HP - is no
big deal.
Kelakhai
2005-12-21 09:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Kelakhai
Since there are no prestige class available in NwN, Barbarian is
nothing compared to the warrior. And the difference gets bigger when
you reach epic levels.
When I say NwN, I really mean "NwN plus SOU plus HoTU." So I'm not sure
what you mean when you say "no prestige class available", unless you
thought I meant the original NwN alone. SOU introduces 5 prestige
classes and HoTU 5 more... and epic levels too.
I really don't find much interest in most of the prestige classes you
see ... I'm already hard to convince about D&D3.0 prestige classes so
considering NwN's are weaker ...
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Kelakhai
If there were any of the prestige class available in the D&D3.0 or 3.5
edition, it would really be a great class to begin with. Now I really
don't see the point of the barbarian ...
Which AD&D prestige classes are you thinking of here, that make
Barbarians worthwhile in a way that they aren't in NWN (or even as a
class by themselves?)
Well as I'm french-user of D&D3.0 & 3.5 first, and second, we have a
national translation team that's f...ing bad, I'm not really sure that
will make sense for you (Just an example, there is a book called 'Song
and Silence' a supplement for Bards and Thieves, it was translated
'Ombre et Lumière' in french as its normal exact traduction would have
been 'Chanson et Silence' ... They seem to really enjoy changing the
meaning of the things they translate ... And I don't speak about real
translation errors ... I'll give an example on bottom of mail).

The translation of this class would be 'Frenetical Berserker' the
prestige class powers are on ten levels (If some don't know, there are
Prestige Class on 5 levels and on 12 for the dragons, yeah, they have
PCs ... Look for the Draconomicon ...).
The powers are :
- Improved rage : Bonus to rage power which stacks to normal barbarian
rage and when increasing level you increase your rage per day.
- Improved power attack : On level 10 you get 4 damage point per -1 to
attack roll you sacrifice.
- Other ones : As I'm not the player nor the master of the game in which
this player evolves (I'm a Sorcerer nearby ...) I don't know the details
but I know it's got the D12 HP, BAB of the Warrior and one or two
increased Save rolls.

That would be a decisive element to make a barbarian, isn't it ?
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Kelakhai
Some will say 'Rage !' I answer that weapon spec and martial spec is
like a permanent-rage power of the warrior ... Speed ? How about boots
of rapidity ? DR ? It's nothing, especially when you reach level 20.
No boots of rapidity in NwN unless maybe someone designed them for their
own module. Boots of speed... but speed stacks with raised run speed
doesn't it?
I played someone's level 23 monk with boots of speed ... Yeah, great,
but doesn't make a real reason to choose barbarian, call it a 'Cool side
effect'.
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Kelakhai
When we'll see more prestige class, the barbarian will become ...
Well, I say : "Available". I did a warrior/weapon master, yeah, THIS
is a great deal when level 21 you hit hard as 55 dmg in one shot and
over 160 dmg on critical 13-20 ... You can't hit that hard with a
barbarian, it doesn't earn enough feats ...
My bard/fighter/RDD does this kind of damage too, tons of fun.
Bard : I know
Fighter : I know
RDD ; What's that ???
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Kelakhai
I'll wait prestige classes ... Besides there are no alignement
obligation to warrior whereas barbarian are chaotic, and since there
are no "roleplay" changes to barbarian through classic chaotic
warrior, I really see no point.
I'd think roleplay would be the main difference between the two classes,
although honestly I don't see what would keep you from roleplaying a
"barbarian" while playing a fighter.
I do notice one other thing we're overlooking, fighters get D10 hp while
Barbarians get D12. 20% better HP totals...
Another 'Cool Side Effect' ... But you don't earn exact 12 HP or 10 HP
each level, it's not exactly 20% more. Moreover, when you play at low
level you'll feel a difference, at high level it will be slight since
you have not a lot of different ways of getting past a monster that
deals a lot of damage (Ex : Vix'Thra ... Err ... What's her name again
...?) you'd dare not drinking a full hp potion when below half or you HP
? Waiting for her to lighting-breath agaiin ?

I mean, from 400 HP to 500 HP my preference will be to the one that
deals the greater damage.
Post by Lance Berg
Lance
Kelakhai
Lance Berg
2005-12-21 14:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kelakhai
Post by Lance Berg
My bard/fighter/RDD does this kind of damage too, tons of fun.
Bard : I know
Fighter : I know
RDD ; What's that ???
Red Dragon Disciple. While from its description, it seems a class for
spell casters, really none of the NWN prestige classes are that, because
the engine can't handle adding spell levels properly. But unlike the
Pale Master class, this one is actually a good melee class, and the
requirements are easy to meet (8 ranks of Lore, well, everyone can buy
lore, and one level of sorcerer or bard. One level isn't that much to
give up)
Kelakhai
2005-12-21 17:20:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Kelakhai
Post by Lance Berg
My bard/fighter/RDD does this kind of damage too, tons of fun.
Bard : I know
Fighter : I know
RDD ; What's that ???
Red Dragon Disciple. While from its description, it seems a class for
spell casters, really none of the NWN prestige classes are that, because
the engine can't handle adding spell levels properly. But unlike the
Pale Master class, this one is actually a good melee class, and the
requirements are easy to meet (8 ranks of Lore, well, everyone can buy
lore, and one level of sorcerer or bard. One level isn't that much to
give up)
I fully agree.
But in the original Prestige Class, you gain additionnal spell slots
every even level, which is very welcome for spellcasters. As it is in
NwN it's a warrior class to be played at epic levels for increasing
attack rolls (Since the RDD gives +8 strength and 10 levels
automatically gives +5 BAB ti makes +9 to attack rolls for 10 epic
levels, almost no other class can do the same except warrior which will
sacrifice much feats ...).
Herve Regad-Pellagru
2005-12-21 20:49:36 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:10:19 +0100, Kelakhai wrote:
[SNIP]
Post by Kelakhai
Well as I'm french-user of D&D3.0 & 3.5 first, and second, we have a
national translation team that's f...ing bad, I'm not really sure that
will make sense for you (Just an example, there is a book called 'Song
and Silence' a supplement for Bards and Thieves, it was translated
'Ombre et Lumière' in french as its normal exact traduction would have
been 'Chanson et Silence' ... They seem to really enjoy changing the
meaning of the things they translate ... And I don't speak about real
translation errors ... I'll give an example on bottom of mail).
LOL. Yes, agree. 98% of all documents translated from english to french,
at least documents bought in France, are done by people with a
pre-teenager level of english. Didn't they translate the famous Hitchcock
film, Vertigo, as "Sueurs froides", breaking any link between the title
and the film ? The full list of such mis-translation could fill up all
usenet bandwidth !

Seriously, since you apparently have a good english reading/writing, you
should have gone with the english version, via amazon.co.uk, IMHO ...

My 2 cents.

--

Herve Regad-Pellagru (BTW, I'm french too :-)
Kelakhai
2005-12-22 12:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herve Regad-Pellagru
LOL. Yes, agree. 98% of all documents translated from english to french,
at least documents bought in France, are done by people with a
pre-teenager level of english. Didn't they translate the famous Hitchcock
film, Vertigo, as "Sueurs froides", breaking any link between the title
and the film ? The full list of such mis-translation could fill up all
usenet bandwidth !
Yeah, in France, you'd better not know the english movies title or die
in despair ... And not see the films in OV or die a second time ...
Post by Herve Regad-Pellagru
Seriously, since you apparently have a good english reading/writing, you
should have gone with the english version, via amazon.co.uk, IMHO ...
Ah ah ah ah
Beside, my english level maybe seems good to you but it isn't that good.
In order to get to the "level" to enter in official translation
companies or societies you need to pass much paying tests...

I had promised an example, and I did not give it ...

The Mordenkainen Sword in the french version is said to have a attack
roll equal to the caster's BAB DIVIDED by his Charisma bonus if he's a
sorcerer, DIVIDED !

Well ... When you read something like that, you easily understand that,
first of all : They're bad at translating even obvious things and second
: they don't seem to understand/care what they translate.

It would certainly not be the same if that was players or GM translating
books. If anyone reading this can give me a job in translation, I'm free !

Hum ... But this option would certainly be a problem ... Since when you
see a prestige class that isn't worth playing ... (And there are many,
especially in the new so-called "balanced" 3.5 edition in which powerful
PC are reducted to "less powerfull than warrior" classes, really I feel
despair when I see/read that... But it ain't a D&D NG here, right ?).
Post by Herve Regad-Pellagru
Herve Regad-Pellagru (BTW, I'm french too :-)
Oh my god ! An french english-speaker thief on this forum :-O

Kelakhai
(French for those who did not understand ...)
Kharsis
2005-12-22 06:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Kelakhai wrote: epic levels.
Post by Kelakhai
If there were any of the prestige class available in the D&D3.0 or 3.5
edition, it would really be a great class to begin with. Now I really
don't see the point of the barbarian ...
I'll wait prestige classes ... Besides there are no alignement
obligation to warrior whereas barbarian are chaotic, and since there are
no "roleplay" changes to barbarian through classic chaotic warrior, I
really see no point.
Kelakhai
The PRC consortium has added a large number of prestige classes to NwN.
The pack comes with a utility to add it to any module including the
OC, oU and HotU.

Kharsis
Kelakhai
2005-12-22 12:21:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kharsis
Post by Kelakhai
I'll wait prestige classes ... Besides there are no alignement
obligation to warrior whereas barbarian are chaotic, and since there
are no "roleplay" changes to barbarian through classic chaotic
warrior, I really see no point.
Kelakhai
The PRC consortium has added a large number of prestige classes to NwN.
The pack comes with a utility to add it to any module including the OC,
oU and HotU.
Kharsis
Don't you need to subscribe an account or something to get this stuff ?

Khai Kel
joecool
2005-12-22 22:59:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kelakhai
Post by Kharsis
Post by Kelakhai
I'll wait prestige classes ... Besides there are no alignement
obligation to warrior whereas barbarian are chaotic, and since there
are no "roleplay" changes to barbarian through classic chaotic
warrior, I really see no point.
Kelakhai
The PRC consortium has added a large number of prestige classes to NwN.
The pack comes with a utility to add it to any module including the OC,
oU and HotU.
Kharsis
Don't you need to subscribe an account or something to get this stuff ?
Khai Kel
no. but you have to run the PRC addon module for each module you want
to run the PRC in. The latest revision added psionics. I use it, and
it can sometimes get buggy. Also if you use it online the server must
have it loaded as well. I like it and it adds tons of feats, spells,
and prestige classes.
Kharsis
2005-12-23 23:33:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by joecool
Post by Kelakhai
Post by Kharsis
Post by Kelakhai
I'll wait prestige classes ... Besides there are no alignement
obligation to warrior whereas barbarian are chaotic, and since there
are no "roleplay" changes to barbarian through classic chaotic
warrior, I really see no point.
Kelakhai
The PRC consortium has added a large number of prestige classes to NwN.
The pack comes with a utility to add it to any module including the OC,
oU and HotU.
Kharsis
Don't you need to subscribe an account or something to get this stuff ?
Khai Kel
no. but you have to run the PRC addon module for each module you want
to run the PRC in. The latest revision added psionics. I use it, and
it can sometimes get buggy. Also if you use it online the server must
have it loaded as well. I like it and it adds tons of feats, spells,
and prestige classes.
I didn't know they added psi. I haven't played NWN for a little while
since I got hooked onWorld of Warcraft :-)


Kharsis
joecool
2005-12-24 05:26:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kharsis
Post by joecool
Post by Kelakhai
Post by Kharsis
Post by Kelakhai
I'll wait prestige classes ... Besides there are no alignement
obligation to warrior whereas barbarian are chaotic, and since there
are no "roleplay" changes to barbarian through classic chaotic
warrior, I really see no point.
Kelakhai
The PRC consortium has added a large number of prestige classes to NwN.
The pack comes with a utility to add it to any module including the OC,
oU and HotU.
Kharsis
Don't you need to subscribe an account or something to get this stuff ?
Khai Kel
no. but you have to run the PRC addon module for each module you want
to run the PRC in. The latest revision added psionics. I use it, and
it can sometimes get buggy. Also if you use it online the server must
have it loaded as well. I like it and it adds tons of feats, spells,
and prestige classes.
I didn't know they added psi. I haven't played NWN for a little while
since I got hooked onWorld of Warcraft :-)
Kharsis
yeah, from reading the forums it sounds like they implented PSI
through feats. Either way it's cool. i don't play any MMORGS, If i
paid cash for a used car only to find out i had to put a ten into a
slot on the dashboard to drive the car i'd be pissed. That's how i see
paying for online games. Course that's my opinion, but it really bugs
me that they want to get more after you pay for the software.
Kharsis
2005-12-24 11:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by joecool
Post by Kharsis
I didn't know they added psi. I haven't played NWN for a little while
since I got hooked onWorld of Warcraft :-)
Kharsis
yeah, from reading the forums it sounds like they implented PSI
through feats. Either way it's cool. i don't play any MMORGS, If i
paid cash for a used car only to find out i had to put a ten into a
slot on the dashboard to drive the car i'd be pissed. That's how i see
paying for online games. Course that's my opinion, but it really bugs
me that they want to get more after you pay for the software.
I used to have the same opinion then made the mistake of playing WoW on
a friends PC. The main appeal is thsat they have managed to transfer
the flavour of warcraft 2 & 3 which means the world has a rich
background with quite a bit of depth.

Kharsis

Paul in Toronto
2005-12-20 15:59:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
I still don't have a firm idea of what a barbarian is and how it differs
from a Fighter.
Other than the rage, there's really no appreciable benefit to playing a
barbarian over a fighter in NWN. I think the class was just included for
completeness.

In a table-top pen and paper game, though, I can assure you that playing a
barbarian is a heck of a lot more fun than playing a fighter, just because
you can take advantage of the fact that your character is probably coming
from a completely different cultural background than the rest of the party.
An Uthgart tribesman will have a different perspective on life than a guy
who's family has been living in Waterdeep for ten generations.

NWN's all about the stats. But with a good GM, a P&P game goes way beyond
any limitations set by purely looking at stats.
Lance Berg
2005-12-20 21:36:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul in Toronto
Post by Lance Berg
I still don't have a firm idea of what a barbarian is and how it differs
from a Fighter.
Other than the rage, there's really no appreciable benefit to playing a
barbarian over a fighter in NWN. I think the class was just included for
completeness.
Rage, bigger HP die, and better run speed. For solo NwN purposes that
last matters more than in a tabletop campaign, because it means you
cover long distances running across zones you've already cleared out
faster, and can move faster than most things that might be chasing you,
so you can run up enough room to swig a healing potion, or play run and
shoot if you have to. I've certainly taken Monk levels in the past
principly for this benefit, but could have gotten the same benefit from
one level of Barb instead of 3 of Monk!
Post by Paul in Toronto
In a table-top pen and paper game, though, I can assure you that playing a
barbarian is a heck of a lot more fun than playing a fighter, just because
you can take advantage of the fact that your character is probably coming
from a completely different cultural background than the rest of the party.
An Uthgart tribesman will have a different perspective on life than a guy
who's family has been living in Waterdeep for ten generations.
There's nothing to prevent you from coming up with an interesting
background for your fighter thats different from the one the next guy
with a Fighter is using. If anything I'd think "barbarian" would be
more restrictive, more stereotyping... but I could come up with several
variations on that theme too.
Post by Paul in Toronto
NWN's all about the stats. But with a good GM, a P&P game goes way beyond
any limitations set by purely looking at stats.
If you're going to posit a good GM, then you should posit "a well
written module" for NwN; giving different conversational choices for the
barbarian, side quests for him and so on. On the other hand, its much
easier to be flexible like that in P&P, where you only have to "write"
the script for the classes you actually have, or better, for the
characters you actually have, and even that you can do on the fly.

Lance
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